Heyoka magazine: There's a couple of dates in the autobiography, which says your great grand father Geronimo may have been born in. They are 1823 and 1829. Do you know which one of these dates was correct?

Harlyn Geronimo: 1829.

HM: It also says there are two places where he could have been born. The middle fork of the Gila, or in Arizona?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well you know, I was told by my grandmother he was actually born at the confluence of the middle fork and East fork. Right there, by the visitors center, presently. They have this forest service building there now.

HM: That's in the Gila?

Harlyn Geronimo: The Gila wilderness. Close to the national cliff building monument. About a mile south of that.

HM: For the Chirichaua, is the birth spot for the child, a sacred spot and is the child brought back to roll in the four directions at a later date?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes correct. Then usually, also in tradition they bury the person close that area.

 

HM: This is a question about not just the buffalo that were slaughtered and wiped out, but did the Spanish or the US also kill off the wild horses, like the ponies around that area?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well they captured a lot of ponies that belonged to the tribe here. Also killed them, so that apaches would not be able to travel far distance , when they were actually in battle with the Calvary and Mexican armies?

HM: What about wild horses, there must have been a lot of wild horses back then roaming around?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes there were a lot of wild horses and they tried to capture these horses and train them as well. To ride across county.

 

HM: The word Apace, what does that mean exactly?

Harlyn Geronimo: The word Apache was given to the tribes here in the south west because of their ability to fight and withstand the harsh environment. Also they were very good horse men. So the Spaniards really took time to study the Chiricahua, the Mescaleros, in this area.  And also they weren't very friendly with the Mexicans coming into their homelands. So they put up a big fight, to keep them out of this area and after so many years of  fighting the Mexicans army.  They started calling them "apache" which means enemy.

HM: Ok. Does that means enemy, in Spanish?

Harlyn Geronimo: There are several versions of that. The Pueblos also used the same term. Because the apaches were also raiding the pueblos here along the Rio Grande. So I was thinking  its got to be a word that was constantly used by the Pueblos and also the Spaniards.  So I don't know who really gave that name to the tribes here.

HM: Ok. I read that this what an apache man said to young warrior. He said "no one is your friend, not even your sister, your father your mother. Your legs are your friends, your brain is your friend. Your eyesight is your friend. Your hair is your friend and your hands are your friends. You must do something with them".

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes that's correct. Basically what he is talking about is survival.

HM: And not to depend on other people?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. Correct.

HM: Is it true that when Geronimo was training the warriors. Some of them came to really hate him, because he was he made the training so difficult and very hard for them?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes that's true.  It was very hard. You cannot just pass it. It took time to become a warrior. You have to be knowledgeable in all the war tactics that he was teaching them, so it didn't occur over night. It took many years to master the art of warfare.

HM: Did he teach the warriors any of his medicine training, or was that just for certain people?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well within the the training it self, the different herbal medicine was taught to the young warriors. For instance how to heal a cut. How to cure like a bullet wound, the were taught to the by their, I guess you could say instructor at that time.

HM: Like first aid?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, because this was a style of training that was similar to the military. But there were actually, amputating legs at that time. From severe infection. They could find a cure, for stomach infections, poison water you know, infested with different bacteria. They were very knowledgeable in these areas. An they were taught the different herbal medicines to the young warriors.

HM: How tall was your great grand father Geronimo?

Harlyn Geronimo: He was 5.10.

 

HM: And Mangus Colorados?

Harlyn Geronimo: He was 6. 2.

HM: How about Cohese?

Harlyn Geronimo: Cohese was about 6 feet. And Victorio was also 6.2.

HM: I wanted do ask you what happened in April of 1871. To the apaches while they were sleeping at the Grant reservation. I think the book said they were white business men that were behind this. There were 108 apaches were murdered and the business from Tucson were acquitted of the crime. Does that sound correct?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well a lot of them were camped and they were concerned at that time about the treaties with the United States. There were some that were actually fighting at that time. There were also some that were at peace with the military. So here again you have to distinguish the truth, but apparently the people that were up in arms in Tucson didn't care who were at peace or not. They just wanted to kill apaches and take their land, basically their way of thinking at that time.

HM: So was it the US business men that were behind the stabbing of them while they were sleeping. I read that they quietly started putting knifes in them in the dark, in the middle of the night. I mean, was it the business men that wanted to murder them?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well you have to understand the business men were behind, I guess you could say, wiping out the tribes at that time. Because basically they after the gold, the minerals, silver and that was part for the plan to eradicate the trines here. So that they wont be in a the way of, at that time, they called it progress. But the were actually stealing from the apaches. This was the apache ancestral land. The only way to get to this mineral was to get rid of them. If you read about the apaches being massacred, it was correct. They were in the way of progress. So called progress, you know.

 

HM: Have the apaches always been farmers, even before the Spanish, Mexicans and European white people came to your land?

Harlyn Geronimo: As far as I know, from the information that was given to me they were always planting corm, squash, pumpkins. Not only that but they also made pottery. Until they started to move constantly, from one location to another. They tried to escape the militarily that were coming into thief homelands. But farming was always part of the society back then.

HM: The reason I asked was because this man in the book said they learned from the Mexicans?

Harlyn Geronimo: No they didn't learn from the Mexicans.  Where did the Mexicans get their corn, squash and beans and all that. You know, they got it from the native people here.

 

HM: This is another question about your great-grandfather Geronimo, that when he was doing the raids into Mexico. Is it true that he used tricks and lies and even kidnapping, even of his own people, to get them to fight against the whites?

Harlyn Geronimo: You have to understand like I said.  The person that interpreted this book twisted a lot of facts, but according to tradition and also in a leadership position. You know, respect was very strong and important at that time. You don't uses lies to get ways.

HM: Or tricks?

Harlyn Geronimo: Right. This was one of the honor systems that they had. The Apache warrior society that they had to be all as straight as an arrow, in line with part of it you know. Also another thing for instance. Like, if there is a village, and they have women folks there. Washing and cleaning up and taking a bath in the warm waters that come out of the earth. Maybe a young male adult would sneak over there and try to look at the women. And if he was caught doing that, the punishment would be execution. and for instance adultery, if woman committed adultery, they would have their noses cut off. It was severe.

HM: They would have their noses cut off?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. Punishment like this was implemented at that time within this society. It was very strict society and you couldn't even lie, because a whole village depended on, whether it survived or not.

HM: So this interpreter, who twisted these facts, this Asa Daklugie. Do you think it was him again, that did this. Or this S.M. Barrett?

Harlyn Geronimo: Daklugie. Just like I said there was animosity there.

HM: This is what I read about the frontiersmen. The white people that went out looking for gold. That they were the worst of the worst of the white people. Because these people were very poor, greedy, desperate and uneducated. Did you great grand father ever mention anything about that?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, it was actually brought up that they were prospecting for that. But the thing about this there were other people behind this pushing this issue. You know, just like I said, they were after the land also. And they sent in people that were wiling to risk their lives but when they returned they were getting good payments. You don't send men with families in there. You send people that have nothing to loose.

HM: Right, that makes a lot of sense. There's a man named John Glum, an agent at San Carlos that tried to arrest your great grand father. And your great grandfather said to him, "We are not going to San Carlos with you, you better be careful other wise your bodies will stay here and make food for the coyotes? Do you know if he said that?.

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes he did.  This man was working for the military. He was implementing all the plans, the rules and regulations that was given to him.

HM: Do you know how much gold and silver was taken out of apache territory?

Harlyn Geronimo: Oh man, there was a lot, probably close to 50 million.

Continue to PART 7