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PART 5
 
 

HARLYN GERONIMO

PART 5   

  
PART 6
 

 

 

John LeKay:  When General Crook was unable to capture Geronimo, General Miles came into the picture. It looks like the treaty was just a trick to get Geronimo into the prison camp?

Harlyn Geronimo: You see, when General Miles took over from General Crook, General Crook had been in this area for a number of years and he knew how the Apaches were training and were actually fighting.  The situation here is that he set up a plan to carry this part of looking for the warriors at that time but it was taking too much time so they figured that they need to change direction and that's where General Miles came into the picture. He just took over the plans that had been implemented, but he slowly kept moving at that time.

JL: General Miles had said that the President of the United States at the time had asked him to speak with Geronimo and that they took an oath and when they made this treaty with a stone, saying that it would last as long as the stone would turn to dust. Was it a tradition to use a stone for a promise or a treaty?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes correct, but here again it wasn't carried out and General Miles broke every stipulation of the treaty, so he turned around and blamed him. That's where a lot of this land here in the south west was lost.

The illustration above shows Geronimo and his band returning from Mexico through Skeleton Canyon with a herd of horses stolen from ranchers in Mexico.
Frederic Remington, published in Harper's Weekly, August 18, 1888

 
 

General Crook

  

JL: Was using the stone just a symbol of saying that it was going to last forever?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, that's the indication.  It's sort of like a land mark that this will last forever.  That's why the treaty was signed, but the government did not respect the treaty.  The stone is still out there somewhere. The land is all taken.

JL: Are you saying that General Crook also caused a lot of problems for Geronimo?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes he did.  Yes he did. He is the one who really studied the Apaches. Mainly in the area for warfare. He found out that they were very superior to the US military at the time. And he found out that they could not capture or conquer Geronimo. So what he did; he implemented  strategy by using other Apache warriors, but he also promised them land, cattle, food and all that to help him capture Geronimo.  But they also broke that promise and they incarcerated all the Apache scouts that were enlisted under his command.

JL: This promise with General Crook, was that also on paper or was it an agreement that they had made between themselves?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes an agreement between the warriors that he actually enlisted into the military at that time, especially to capture Geronimo because they knew the landscape, they knew the region, and they knew the water holes. Also the hit and run tactics and the type of strategy the military is using presently. They were very knowledgeable in this area. The only way to capture Geronimo was to use his own people.

JL: Against him?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: So he bribed them more or less to do this?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes he did. Then after they captured Geronimo, it was like stabbing all the warriors that helped him in the back with a bowie knife.

JL: He literally killed them with a bowie knife?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, he did not keep his promise.

 

General Crooks house

  

JL: Ok, just wanted to make sure.

Harlyn Geronimo: Another grandmother also told me a story. Back in the late 50s how she mentioned they were camped on the side of a mountain and these warriors with red head bands attacked them.  And there was this white officer with them. They started fighting hand to hand combat and a lot of them were killed and my grandmother was actually involved in the attack where for the military came around early in the morning before dawn and attacked the village. But at that time, the military scouts were the Apaches that Crook had hired at the time to have them enlisted in the military. He used them as Apache scouts. One of their trade marks was a red bandana tied around their heads.

 

 

Apache scouts

  

 
 

 

 

General George Crook and his scouts, Fort Bowie, Arizona, 1885

 

JL: How did this Crook get these Apaches for hire? Were these some of the Apaches that were outcastes from the tribes? How did he get to bribe them and why did they take his money?

Harlyn Geronimo: He actually used other tribes, like San Carlos and White River.

JL: But were they Apache?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they were Apache.

JL: So they were not that close to Geronimo?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, they weren't close to Geronimo.

JL: Did Geronimo ever speak of this General Crook and what he thought of him?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, according to oral history. He is the one that kept his word. He was an honest individual, compared to the other generals that were in that area. He was also one of the bravest.

 

 

Armed Apache Warriors, Geronimo's Camp Armed men and children pose in front of a stick and blanket shelter at Geronimo's camp shortly before his surrender to General Crook, March 27, 1886.

  

JL: General Crook?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he was and he treated the Apaches pretty fair until General Miles came into the picture. But also another credit that he didn't get was that he established the Apache scouts (that you probably read about). They tried to track my great grandfather down with the regular army, infantry and Calvary, but they couldn't.  They didn't have the stamina or endurance to keep up with them. So what he did was after studying the situation over several years, the only way that he could be captured was by using his own people. So that's where the Apache scouts were born.

JL: Do you think that's this is another reason why they changed the history in the book; because it was embarrassing to the US army and the Calvary?  It made them look very bad in it because they couldn't capture him for all those years?

Harlyn Geronimo: That's true.

JL: So they were embarrassed?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they were embarrassed.  There was no way to keep up with the Apaches back then. They had one of the top people from the east coast brought in to the south west to track him, but they couldn't even keep up with him. These were athletes that were in tip top condition, but they just couldn't keep up with the band.

 

In 1886, General George Crook tracked down Geronimo and his band at the Canyon de los Embudos in the Sierra Madre Mountains with the help of apache scouts  The general persuaded the Apaches to meet with him in a conference which took place from March 25 to March 27. 

In the course of the negotiating, Crook convinced Geronimo to end the raids and agree to a conditional surrender, whereby the Apaches would accept reservation life

 Geronimo is fourth from the left, Crook second from the right.
 

 

JL: Overall, who would you say caused the most damage to the Apaches? Was it the Mexicans or the US Government?

Harlyn Geronimo: I think the Mexicans did more damage because they were at war with the Mexicans for a good 500 years or 400 years, something like that.  And then the Mexican government got tired from the Apaches still fighting the government down there.  So they had to sign the Treaty of Guadeloupe, where Arizona and parts of Mexico were turned over to the States and that also included dealing with the Apaches. That was the treaty between Mexico and the United States.

JL: How about the relationship today; I'm sure its changed a lot since then?

Harlyn Geronimo: It changed a lot.  There is no animosity, no hard feelings.  We are all educated now., but I was told Sierra Madre was always your ancestral land, just like the Gilas. So you know according to tradition it still belongs to us. 

 

 

Geronomo's Camp Geronimo (1829-1909), the Apache Chief that lead resistance to U.S. policy to consolidate his people on reservations stands with other Apache warriors, women and children shortly before his surrender to General Crook, March 27, 1886.

  

 

JL: Another thing I wanted to ask was did the Mexicans attack the Apaches first?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes they did. You see that whole area Sierra Madre belonged to the Chirirchaua, then you go east.  Then the Lepan came into the picture from the Big Ben area, over to the Houston.  That was all Lepan Apache country down to the Gulf of Mexico and up to Amarillo Texas. And then the Chirichaua goes 50 miles north of Mexico City. They have been on their homelands (their ancestral lands) for a good 1500 years. And then around 1400s, when Columbus came ashore and came up to Mexico City and up to this part of the country and more Spaniards came in and tried to take the land from the Apaches.  They were actually working from the south and also from the east.

JL: The Spaniards and these Mexicans, did they also want the minerals, the natural resources too?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, they were actually after the natural resources.

JL: Was it mainly gold that they were looking for?

Harlyn Geronimo: Mainly gold and silver.

JL: Yes that's right, I think the Spaniards really liked that gold.  Was gold valuable to the Apaches?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well, it was not. It was sort of evil connected to this type of mineral at the time because everywhere they found gold, a lot of people were killed in the area. And later they said they didn't want anything to do with gold because it brought them bad luck. It did because the government found out about it and the Mexicans came after them because they knew where the gold was, where it was deposited at that time.
 

Gold nugget

  

 

JL:  I actually did have a question about the food, because in the book about Geronimo by S.M. Barratt, it said that they did not eat fish?

Harlyn Geronimio:  No, they did not eat fish because for one main reason; it was in the same species as the reptiles so they did not eat the reptile itself. They don't touch, it they don't mess with it. Since it was in the same category as the snakes, they did not consume it; they wouldn't touch it.

JL:  That's the same reason they would not eat the hogs; because the hogs ate the reptiles?  What about bear, it said in the book he hunted the bear?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Well the bear, in the Chirichaua Apache tradition, the bear is the grandfather.  After a medicine man dies, those close to the family believe that after life he will be reincarnated as the bear.  Only at religious functions, but not everybody ate it, you have to be a very powerful medicine man to eat it.

JL: Oh really, so only he could eat it.  OK, now I understand.  Yeah, I thought about it because I read that the bear can dig up its own medicine.  It knows how to dig up its own medicine to heal itself.  That's why I asked you about it. 

And the mountain lion, is that different?
 

Harlyn Geronimio:  Well, also it falls in the same category as the bear.  It is also a very sacred animal.  Only he could hunt the mountain lion and eat it at a religious ceremony.

JL:  At that time, would most of the food source come from hunting the buffalo the bucks and the deer?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, they used the buffalo as the main food source at that time.  There was plenty of it.  There were songs for it used as food at different festivities back then; religious festivities. Now it's all gone here from the south west.  A lot of our people are referred to the elk itself and the mill deer.  That's their main food source. 

JL:  And do they hunt it themselves; the elk I mean?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes they do.  At the time they had the bigger elk; I believe the Merriam.  It's got bigger antlers.  It's bigger than the Rocky Mountain elk that we have down here, but they all became extinct around 1912. 

JL:  Really, completely?  So now there's no buffalo where you are?  None at all?

Harlyn Geronimio:  No there's none.  It was part of the termination policy that the government implemented to terminate the Apaches here in the southwest.  So one way to terminate them was to kill off all of the buffalo here in the southwest so they would have no food to eat.

JL: What is the Apache diet like today? Is it similar to how it used to be or has it changed a lot?

Harlyn Geronimio:  It changed a lot. Now we can just go to the Wal-Mart super center and get all of the  meat, turkey, pork, beef and also vegetables, corn squash you name it. It's just next door so we've got no problem. We still plant as our way of life. A lot of them are still using the wild herbs for medicine and just like the wild cabbage, wild fruit and nuts for a stable diet.  It's not forgotten.  It's still used; not on a regular basis maybe once a month or when they have a special function here.  But also the venison; it's still used a lot. That was one of the major food sources when they were in warfare. Venison or dried beef. They usually grind it up and and keep it in big sacks. Not only that but dried fruit or dried vegetables. And when they are close to an area where they have it stockpiled they would just go in and get it.

Just like I said that diet, the Atkins diet. The protein diet. The Apaches used to use it. The majority of the food they consumed was protein. Meat, wild game, turkey, gooses, you name it; what's out there and then the fruit and vegetables. Wild vegetables they planted, nuts and berries. So it's all protein if you look at the majour ingredients.

JL:  So you would have no food to eat; get rid of the food source.  Also I read that the government put strychnine, rat poison in some of the nuts, the pine nuts and they fed this to the Apaches?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes, they did that.  Not only the buffalo meat but other food sources that the government fed to the Apaches they were actually poisoned.  But not only that, even like small pox; they infected the Apaches with small pox so that they could kill the tribes that were in the way of progress, I guess.

JL:  The small pox; did they put the small pox on the blankets?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes they did; they put the small pox on the blankets and they distributed them to the tribes here.

JL:  So that must have really killed a lot of Apache people?

:Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes it killed a lot of the tribal members.

 

JL:  Did Geronimo speak Spanish as well?

:Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes, he was very fluent in Spanish and several Apache dialects and the Navajo itself.

JL:  How many Apache dialects are there?

Harlyn Geronimio::  There's about 5 or 6, including the Navajo too.

JL:  He spoke Navajo too.  It says that he visited the Navajo and did some trading.

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes.

JL: Do you know if he ever met the Lakota or other Indians like Crazy Horse or tribes from other parts of the US?

Harlyn Geronimio: No he never did. There is an article that said there was a person that came from New York to the south west; one of the chiefs from that area, but that's all false, there no basis to it. When he was incarcerated, they used to take him to different functions like the world fair and different bigger parades in Chicago and in New York and there were other Indians that were also incarcerated there that participated in them.

 

Hopi snake priest

  

JL:  What about the Hopi, did he visit them?

Harlyn Geronimio:  They actually didn't get along with the Pueblo tribes at that time.  They actually raided them.  The reason they got along with the Navajo is because the dialects are similar. 

JL:  How far is the Navajo reservation from the Chirichaua Apache reservation?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Say maybe 150 miles. You were talking about food source; I would like to mention that the last 15 years you have heard about the Atkin's diet, it's a protein diet.  Well, the Apache's a good 150 years ago, the main food source was all protein; it's nothing new.  They would have a dry venison or just the whole roast itself with wild nuts (which is another protein) and then a plant here (a big plant here) that the leaves bloom in June and it's like cabbage (that's another food source) and then the mescal, the list goes on and on.  All the foods that they consumed at that time, the protein.  You had a different variety of seeds, even corn, it originated in the Southwest, squash, pumpkin, they're all from here; beans in different varieties.  It was all protein. 

JL:  What about fruit?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes fruit also; they had a lot of different fruit.  Also, they migrated a good thousand miles into the Sierra Madre close to Mexico City so they had all of the jungle fruits; the kiwis, mangos, bananas, sweet potatoes. 

JL:  It sounds very healthy.

 

 

Harlyn Geronimio:  You know, this was all their ancestral homeland.  It goes all the way down close to Mexico City and by traveling down this region they had to have a good diet to complete their journey.  I just like to mention that the Atkins diet is nothing new.  Even a good handful of jerky, that's all protein.  We still eat that a lot here.  My wife makes the mill deer jerky, the white kill deer jerky meat. She actually cuts up the meat itself and hangs it outside in the winter months to dry out.

JL:  How long does that take?

Harlyn Geronimio:  I'd say about a month.

JL:  Does it have to be thin strips to make it dry?

Harlyn Geronimio:  I'd say about a quarter of an inch and about a foot long.  It's a process that's kind of complicated; they go by the way the meat, the muscle runs. A process that's handed down to our generation.

 

JL:  So the way it runs, like the tendons?

Harlyn Geronimio: So when they're on the run or traveling, they could go to the designated site and have their food source ready.

JL:  What about the drinking water; did they get that from the mountain streams?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes they did, just like the Chirichaua Apache tribes. Usually their camp areas are close to the hot springs.  There are several here in the southwest; the reason being that for sanitary reasons they could keep clean.  They're really clean people.  That's one of the main reasons they're close to the hot springs.  They could take their daily baths, washing all their clothes and all of that.  It's like a pond of hot water; you can wash up, you can take a good bath, wash your clothes your hair; hot water coming out from the ground.  It's pretty sacred to the Apaches; that's another reason.

JL:  These hot springs, are they close to where you are today?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Well, you see as a descendant Chiricahua Apache tribal member, we were put here on the Mescalero Apache reservation.  This reservation doesn't have any hot springs, but traditionally everywhere the Chiricahua Apache travel in their ancestral land they had hot springs.  It was another reason why their home areas were in that region because of the sacred hot springs in that area.

 

 

JL:  So the reservation that you'r on now,  was this originally where the Apache were in the beginning or is it somewhere different?

Harlyn Geronimio: Well there are several Apache tribes. This one is called the Mescalaro Apache tribe. Back around 1912, the US government  took the Chiricahua here on this reservation with the Mescalero tribe, they  rounded up the Lepans Apaches from Mexico and around the tip of Texas.  I mean the Big Ben area, Eagle Pass, and then they herded them up here to this reservation and told them to stay here and told them this your your home now. When they did that, all the land that was originally theirs was lost. They didn't get it back so they are concentrated here on the Apache reservation.  Besides other people that are claiming, Lepans, Chiricahua, presently now that's just for a monetary gain. There is none other than the people they put on the reservation here.  We got a lot of wannabes up there.

JL: How far is that from where you are?

Harlyn Geronimo;  You mean Big Ben?

JL: Yes.

Harlyn Geronimo: Its' a good, maybe 500 miles south, that's Mescalero.

JL: What is the reservation you live on like today?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Well as you know it's a sovereign nation. There are several rights that the tribe has given up to the US government like where they cannot make treaties with other nations but it's a sovereign nation. We have our own court system, our own legislature, our own tribal council, executive branch, also within that a judicial branch. It's all set up similar to the US government, but a lot of laws are implemented and geared towards the tradition. Some of the laws applied here that was passed by congress, the saving major crimes act. That applies here. Also the Constitution that the tribe has is sanctioned by the Interior Department, the BIA (the Bureau of Indian Affairs). Just like for the police department, the bureau is providing that area. They provide the police department. It was under the bureau, now it's under the Justice Department. They have about 10 police officers and a captain, but I see presently this administration is signing off on a lot of sovereignty rights. Like the games compact; they signed that last year with the state of New Mexico. Which I feel is wrong because of the sovereign nation  and we don't contract any services to other federal or state entities.

 

 

Mescalero Apache reservation

  
 

Wendell Chino

  

JL: Can you tell me about what happened to the missing money in the gambling casino?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes that was 1993 to 1998 I believe. There was 400 million missing.

JL: How much?

Harlyn Geronimo: 400 million.

JL: Did anyone figure out what happened to it?

Harlyn Geronimo: No at the same time the FBI was also looking into the casino. They heard that money was being taken, but it was never really thoroughly investigated. After maybe two years, the president of the tribe died. The president (Chino) was blamed for that and after he died they stopped doing an investigation. Up to now, we don't know where that money is or where it went. But after the president of the tribe died, they stopped all the investigations. This was brought to them maybe four years earlier, that money was being taken and they were actually monitoring the person; the president of the tribe taking money and delivering the cash to a third party. They were just observing it.

JL: So who owned this casino?

Harlyn Geronimo:  The tribe. The Apache tribe.

JL: So when you say the Apache tribe, you mean like the Apache government?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes, the Mescalero Apache government.
 

JL: So, did it belong to all the people or just certain members of the government?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well anything that is established here, anything that is run by the tribe belongs to the tribe, the people.

JL: So the money should have been distributed to all of the members of the tribe?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes it was supposed to go into a general fund of the tribe. 

JL: Ok. Does the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) have anything to do with this?

Harlyn Geronimo: They are supposed to see that everything is run smoothly.

JL: Like in terms of how the money is distributed to the people?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes.

JL: So the money was in a bank account?

Harlyn Geronimo:  No what happened was, it was taken from the casino.

JL: Like cash?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Yes cash, some of it cash.  I think other parts of it was taken through other means.

JL: How are the Senators connected to this case?

Harlyn Geronimo: Indirectly. One of the senator's son in-laws was the assistant attorney general for New Mexico. That's why the investigation never got off the ground.

JL: Ok. Now I understand.

Harlyn Geronimo: It's something that people will be surprised if they read about it.

JL: Yes I think so. Did any other newspapers or national media cover this?

Harlyn Geronimo: Well after the person died they did cover it and found that a lot of money was missing. Here again the FBI stopped their investigation after he died. They said that they could not find anything, but remember all along.  The son-in-law to one of the big senators was the assistant attorney general. The  US attorney for New Mexico, for this area. 

JL: On another subject. I heard somewhere that your great grandfather was able to walk without leaving footprints? Is this true?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he could actually go from one place to another place without leaving any footprints. That's part of the power he possessed. Internal power.

JL: That's because of the medicine he had?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, because of the medicine.

JL: I remember you told me a story once where he was being chased by the Calvary and he called the coyotes to help him.

Harlyn Geronimo: Well what happened was they were about to catch up with him when they were traveling and on the war path, fighting for their freedom and their homeland.  They usually have the women folks, little kids, babies in that group, the band itself and they had to give the woman folks and kids time to get ahead of the war party. So what he usually did, not on only one occasion, but several times, he actually stopped and he raised his arms, when the Calvary were approaching around the mountain, around the bend. He would wait and start calling the spirits and by the time they came around the corner, you would see a pack of wolves or coyotes running by.

JL: You told me one time Geronimo had ESP.
 

Lozen

  

 

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he actually had ESP. He actually got information from other warriors when they were in combat or in warfare out here.

JL: So that's how they communicated, Lozen and him and the others?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, but a lot of this information regarding the ESP and the medicine itself, you know its very secret, so they kept it confidential. Very secretive up to this date. It still is.

JL: Did the US Calvary know about Geronimo's supernatural abilities?

Harlyn Geronimo: No they tried not to talk about it within the treaties' signing and other times they were in confinement;  to not give out too much information. It was concealed to where nobody talks about it.

 

JL; Ok.  The oral tradition that your great grandmother Kate told you about Geronimo's life; would you say it is very different from the autobiography?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes it is.  After reading it and putting it in perspective, there is a big difference from what I was told. They didn't put in a lot of information about how the Calvary attacked the villages and actually killed the women and children and the elderly, throwing the babies up in the air, onto the bayonets. Things like that.

JL: The American Calvary?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes. Grabbing the babies by their legs and swinging them around, against the wagon wheels; things like that.

JL: How awful. So this guy Asa Daklugie and SM Barrett kept this out.  They probably didn't want to put that in because he was going to show it to President Ulysses S. Grant.

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, you know it was censored. So a lot of it was taken out of that context.

 

 

JL: I wanted to ask you about the other chief Victorio. Was he Geronimo's cousin?

Harlyn Geronimo: Victorio was a relation, but he grew up with Victorio. Victorio was also with the eastern Chiricahua tribe.  The same tribe Geronmio was from.

JL: And he was also in Fort Sills prison?

Harlyn Geronimo: He died about 6 years earlier in 1880 fighting the Mexican Calvary in Tracastea Mexico.

JL: So who was the other chief's son that he was in Fort Sills with?

Harlyn Geronimo: Naiche, Cohises son.

 
 

Naiche Son of Cohise

  
 

Harlyn Geronimo. Photograph by Roy Lohr.

  

    

Sign the petition ww.petitiononline.com/Geronimo/petition.html


 

 

JL: Do you have tribal sovereignty today?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes we do have tribal sovereignty, here in Mescarlero, where we are a nation within a nation.  We still have most of our rights as a tribe but the states and congress are still chipping away at our sovereignty. I don't know when they are going to stop. I don't know when they are going to realize that these tribes were here before the US government.

JL: How are they chipping away at it?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Implementing laws that are passed by Congress and applying it to the reservations.

JL: What is the Senator's name from New Mexico?

Harlyn Geronimo: Pete Domenici  He is from Arizona. He has been on the Indian Affairs Committee in Washington. He has been very helpful to the Native American tribes, so I think he is a good person. Very Reasonable and  knowledgeable in Indian affairs.

JL: That's good. Do you have the Bureau of Indian Affairs where you are?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, we have it here.  It's all across the United States. Everywhere you have a tribe that is on a reservation. You know maybe Pueblos in New Mexico; they have several big pueblos here and also and if you go to California they have the Mission Indians, the smaller tribes.  Small land base everywhere you find a tribe the bureau is there. I believe they have a fiduciary duty to the tribe to oversee the function.

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