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Heyoka
Magazine :
When General Crook was unable to capture Geronimo,
General Miles came into the picture. It looks like
the treaty
was just
a trick to get Geronimo
into the prison camp?
Harlyn Geronimo: You
see, when General Miles took over from
General Crook, General Crook had been in this area for a
number of years and he knew how the Apaches were training and
were actually fighting. The situation here is that he set up a plan
to carry this part of looking for the warriors at that time but it
was taking too much time so they figured that they need to
change direction and that's where General Miles came into the
picture. He just took over the plans that had been implemented,
but he slowly kept moving at that time.
HM : General Miles
had said that the President of the United States at the time had asked him
to speak with Geronimo and that they took an oath and when they
made this treaty with a stone, saying that it would last as long
as the stone would turn to dust. Was it a tradition to use a stone for a
promise or a treaty?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
correct, but here again it wasn't carried out and General Miles
broke every stipulation of the treaty, so he turned around and
blamed him. That's where a lot of this land here in the south
west was lost.
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The illustration above shows Geronimo and his band
returning from Mexico through Skeleton Canyon with a
herd of horses stolen from ranchers in Mexico.
Frederic Remington, published in Harper's Weekly,
August 18, 1888
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HM: Was using the
stone just a symbol of saying that it was going to last forever?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes,
that's the indication. It's sort of like a land mark that this
will last forever. That's why the treaty was signed, but the
government did not respect the treaty. The stone is still out there somewhere. The land is all taken.
HM:
Are you saying that General
Crook also caused a lot of problems for Geronimo?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
he did. Yes
he did. He is the one who really studied the Apaches. Mainly in
the area for warfare. He found out that they were very superior
to the US military at the time. And he found out that they
could not capture or conquer Geronimo. So what he did; he
implemented strategy by using other Apache warriors, but
he also promised them land, cattle, food and all that to help
him capture Geronimo. But they also broke that promise and
they incarcerated all the Apache scouts that were enlisted under his command.
HM: This promise
with General Crook, was that also on paper or was it an agreement that
they had made between themselves?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
an agreement between the warriors that he actually enlisted into
the military at that time, especially to capture Geronimo because
they knew the landscape, they knew the region, and they knew the
water holes. Also the hit and run tactics and the type of
strategy the military is using presently. They were very
knowledgeable in this area. The only way to capture Geronimo was to
use his own people.
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HM: Against him?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes.
HM: So he bribed
them more or less to do this?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
he did. Then after they captured Geronimo, it was like
stabbing all the warriors that helped him in the back with a
bowie knife.
HM: He literally
killed them with a bowie knife?
Harlyn Geronimo: No,
he did not keep his promise.
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HM : Ok,
just wanted to make sure.
Harlyn Geronimo:
Another grandmother also told me a story. Back in
the late 50s how she mentioned they were camped on
the side of a
mountain and these warriors with red head bands attacked them.
And there was this white officer with them. They started
fighting hand to hand combat and a lot of them were killed and
my grandmother was actually involved in the attack where for
the military came around early in the morning before dawn and
attacked the village. But at that time, the military scouts were the Apaches that Crook
had hired at the time to have them
enlisted in the military. He used them as Apache scouts. One of
their trade marks was a red bandana tied around their heads.
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General George Crook and his scouts, Fort Bowie, Arizona, 1885
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HM: How did
this Crook
get these Apaches for hire? Were these some of the Apaches that
were outcastes from the tribes? How did he get to bribe them and
why did they take his money?
Harlyn Geronimo:
He
actually used other tribes, like San Carlos and White River.
HM: But were
they Apache?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
they were Apache.
HM: So they were not
that close to Geronimo?
Harlyn Geronimo: No,
they weren't close to Geronimo.
HM: Did Geronimo ever speak of this
General Crook and what he thought of him?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes,
according to oral history. He is the one that kept his word. He
was an honest individual, compared to the other generals that
were in that area. He was also one of the bravest.
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Armed Apache Warriors, Geronimo's Camp
Armed men and children pose in front of a stick
and blanket shelter at Geronimo's camp shortly
before his surrender to General Crook, March 27,
1886.
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HM :
General Crook?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes, he was and he treated the Apaches
pretty fair until General Miles came into the
picture. But also another credit that he didn't get
was that he established the Apache scouts (that you
probably read about). They tried to track my great
grandfather down with the regular army, infantry
and Calvary, but they couldn't. They didn't have the
stamina or endurance to keep up with them. So what
he did was after studying the situation over several
years, the only way that he could be captured was by
using his own people. So that's where the Apache
scouts were born.
HM : Do
you think that's this is another reason why they
changed the history in the book; because it was
embarrassing to the US army and the Calvary?
It made them
look very bad in it because they couldn't capture
him for all those years?
Harlyn
Geronimo: That's true.
HM : So
they were embarrassed?
Harlyn
Geronimo: Yes they were embarrassed. There was no way
to keep up with the Apaches back then. They had one
of the top people from the east coast brought in
to the south west to track him, but they
couldn't even keep up with him. These were athletes
that were in tip top condition, but they just
couldn't keep up with the band.
In 1886,
General George Crook tracked down Geronimo and his
band at the Canyon de los Embudos in the Sierra
Madre Mountains with the help of apache scouts
The general persuaded the Apaches to meet with him
in a conference which took place from March 25 to
March 27.
In the
course of the negotiating, Crook convinced Geronimo
to end the raids and agree to a conditional
surrender, whereby the Apaches would accept
reservation life
Geronimo is fourth from the
left, Crook second from the right.
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HM: Overall, who
would you say caused the most damage to the Apaches? Was it the
Mexicans or the US Government?
Harlyn Geronimo: I
think the Mexicans did more damage because they were at war with
the Mexicans for a good 500 years or 400 years, something like
that. And then the Mexican government got tired from the
Apaches still fighting the government down there. So they
had to sign the Treaty of Guadeloupe, where Arizona and parts of
Mexico were turned over to the States and that also included
dealing with the Apaches. That was the treaty between Mexico and
the United States.
HM: How about
the relationship today; I'm sure its changed a lot since then?
Harlyn Geronimo: It
changed a lot. There is no animosity, no hard feelings.
We are
all educated now., but I was told Sierra Madre was always your
ancestral land, just like the Gilas. So you know according to
tradition it still belongs to us.
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Geronomo's Camp
Geronimo (1829-1909), the Apache Chief that lead
resistance to U.S. policy to consolidate his people
on reservations stands with other Apache warriors,
women and children shortly before his surrender to
General Crook, March 27, 1886.
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HM : Another
thing I wanted to ask was did the Mexicans attack the Apaches
first?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
they did. You see that whole area Sierra Madre belonged to
the Chirirchaua, then you go east. Then the Lepan
came into the picture from the Big Ben area, over to the
Houston. That was all Lepan Apache country down to the Gulf of
Mexico and up to Amarillo Texas. And then the Chirichaua goes 50
miles north of Mexico City. They have been on their homelands (their ancestral lands) for a good 1500 years. And then around
1400s, when Columbus came ashore and came up to Mexico City and
up to this part of the country and more Spaniards came in and
tried to take the land from the Apaches. They were
actually working from the south and also from the east.
HM : The
Spaniards and these Mexicans, did they also want the minerals, the natural
resources too?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, they were actually after the natural resources.
HM : Was it mainly
gold that they were looking for?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Mainly gold and silver.
HM : Yes that's
right, I think the Spaniards really liked that gold. Was
gold valuable to the Apaches?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well, it was not. It was sort of evil connected to this type of
mineral at the time because everywhere they found gold, a lot
of people were killed in the area. And later they said they
didn't want anything to do with gold because it brought them
bad luck. It did because the government found out about it
and the Mexicans came after them because they knew where the
gold was, where it was
deposited at that time.
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HM: I actually
did have a question about the food, because in the book about
Geronimo by S.M. Barratt, it said
that they did not eat fish?
Harlyn Geronimio:
No, they did not eat fish because for one main reason; it was in
the same species as the reptiles so they did not eat the reptile
itself. They don't touch, it they don't mess with it. Since
it was in the same category as the snakes, they did not consume
it; they wouldn't touch it.
HM: That's the
same reason they would not eat the hogs; because the hogs ate
the reptiles? What about bear, it said in the book he
hunted the bear?
Harlyn Geronimio: Well the
bear, in the Chirichaua Apache tradition, the bear is the
grandfather. After a medicine man dies, those close to the
family believe that after life he will be reincarnated as the bear.
Only at religious functions, but not everybody ate it, you have
to be a very powerful medicine man to eat it.
HM: Oh really, so
only he could eat it. OK, now I understand. Yeah, I
thought about it because I read that the bear can dig
up its own medicine. It knows how to dig up its own medicine to
heal itself. That's why I asked you about it.
And the mountain
lion, is that different?
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Harlyn
Geronimio: Well, also it falls in the same
category as the bear. It is also a very sacred animal.
Only he could hunt the mountain lion and eat it at a
religious ceremony.
HM: At
that time, would most of the food source come from
hunting the buffalo the bucks and the deer?
Harlyn
Geronimio: Yes, they used the buffalo as the main food
source at that time. There was plenty of it.
There were songs for it used as food at different
festivities back then; religious festivities. Now it's all
gone here from the south west. A lot of our people
are referred to the elk itself and the mill deer.
That's their main food source.
HM:
And do they hunt it themselves; the elk I mean?
Harlyn
Geronimio: Yes they do. At the time they
had the bigger elk; I believe the Merriam. It's got
bigger antlers. It's bigger than the Rocky Mountain elk
that we have down here, but they all became extinct around
1912.
HM:
Really, completely? So now there's no buffalo
where you are? None at all?
Harlyn
Geronimio: No there's none. It was part of
the termination policy that the government implemented
to terminate the Apaches here in the
southwest. So one way to terminate them was to kill off
all of the buffalo here in the southwest so they would
have no food to eat.
HM: What is
the Apache diet like today? Is it similar to how it used
to be or has it changed a lot?
Harlyn
Geronimio: It changed a lot. Now we can just go to
the Wal-Mart super center and get all of the
meat, turkey, pork, beef and also vegetables, corn squash
you name it. It's just next door so we've got no problem.
We still plant as our way of life. A lot of them are
still using the wild herbs for medicine and just like
the wild cabbage, wild fruit and nuts for a stable diet.
It's not forgotten. It's still used; not on a regular basis
maybe once a month or when they have a special
function here. But also the venison; it's still
used a lot. That was one of the major food sources when
they were in warfare. Venison or dried beef. They
usually grind it up and and keep it in big sacks. Not
only that but dried fruit or dried vegetables. And when
they are close to an area where they have it stockpiled
they would just go in and get it.
Just like I
said that diet, the Atkins diet. The protein diet. The
Apaches used to use it. The majority of the food they
consumed was protein. Meat, wild game, turkey, gooses, you
name it; what's out there and then the fruit and
vegetables. Wild vegetables they planted, nuts and
berries. So it's all protein if you look at the majour
ingredients.
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HM: So you would have no food to
eat; get
rid of the food source. Also I read that the government
put strychnine, rat poison in
some of the nuts, the pine nuts and they fed this to the
Apaches?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, they did that. Not only the
buffalo meat but other food sources that the government fed to
the Apaches they were actually poisoned. But not only
that, even like small pox; they infected the Apaches with small pox
so that they could kill the tribes that were in the way of
progress, I guess.
HM: The small pox; did they put the small
pox on the blankets?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes they did; they put the small pox
on the blankets and they distributed them to the tribes here.
HM: So that must have really killed a lot
of Apache people?
:Harlyn Geronimio: Yes it killed a lot of the tribal
members.
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HM:
Did Geronimo speak Spanish as well?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, he was very fluent in Spanish and
several Apache dialects and the Navajo itself.
HM: How many Apache dialects are there?
Harlyn Geronimio:: There's about 5 or 6, including the
Navajo too.
HM: He spoke Navajo too. It says
that he visited the Navajo and did some trading.
Harlyn Geronimio:
Yes.
HM: Do you
know if he ever met the Lakota or other Indians like Crazy Horse
or tribes from other parts of the US?
Harlyn Geronimio:
No he never did. There is an article that said there was a
person that came from New York to the south west; one of the
chiefs from that area, but that's all false, there no basis to
it. When he was incarcerated, they used to take him to
different functions like the world fair and different bigger
parades in Chicago and in New York and there were other
Indians that were also incarcerated there that participated in
them.
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HM: What about the Hopi, did he visit
them?
Harlyn Geronimio: They actually didn't get along with
the Pueblo tribes at that time. They actually raided them.
The reason they got along with the Navajo is because the
dialects are similar.
HM: How far is the Navajo reservation from
the Chirichaua Apache reservation?
Harlyn Geronimio: Say maybe 150 miles. You were talking about food source; I would like to mention that
the last 15 years you have heard about the Atkin's diet, it's a
protein diet. Well, the Apache's a good 150 years ago, the
main food source was all protein; it's nothing new. They would
have a dry venison or just the whole roast itself with wild nuts
(which is another protein) and then a plant here (a big plant
here) that the leaves bloom in June and it's like cabbage
(that's another food source) and then the mescal, the list goes
on and on. All the foods that they consumed at that
time, the protein. You had a different variety of seeds,
even corn, it originated in the Southwest, squash, pumpkin,
they're all from here; beans in different varieties. It was
all protein.
HM: What about
fruit?
Harlyn Geronimio:
Yes fruit also; they had a lot of different fruit. Also,
they migrated a good thousand miles into the Sierra Madre close
to Mexico City so they had all of the jungle fruits; the kiwis,
mangos, bananas, sweet potatoes.
HM: It sounds
very healthy.
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Harlyn Geronimio:
You know, this was all their ancestral homeland. It goes
all the way down close to Mexico City and by traveling down this
region they had to have a good diet to complete their journey.
I just like to mention that the Atkins diet is nothing new.
Even a good handful of jerky, that's all protein.
We still eat that a lot here. My wife makes the mill deer
jerky, the white kill deer jerky meat. She actually cuts up
the meat itself and hangs it outside in the winter months to dry
out.
HM: How long
does that take?
Harlyn Geronimio: I'd say about a month.
HM: Does it have to be thin strips to make
it dry?
Harlyn Geronimio: I'd say about a quarter of an inch and
about a foot long. It's a process that's kind of complicated;
they go by the way the meat, the muscle runs. A process that's
handed down to our generation.
HM: So the way it runs, like the tendons?
Harlyn Geronimio: So
when they're on the
run or traveling, they could go to the designated site and have their food
source ready.
HM: What about the drinking water; did
they get that from the mountain streams?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes they did, just like the Chirichaua Apache tribes.
Usually their camp areas are close to
the hot springs. There are several here in the southwest; the
reason being that for sanitary reasons they could keep clean.
They're really clean people. That's one of the main reasons
they're close to the hot springs. They could take their daily
baths, washing all their clothes and all of that. It's
like a pond of hot water; you can wash up, you can take a good
bath, wash your clothes your hair; hot water coming out from the
ground. It's pretty sacred to the Apaches; that's another
reason.
HM: These hot springs, are they close to
where you are today?
Harlyn Geronimio: Well, you see as
a descendant Chiricahua Apache tribal member, we were put here on the Mescalero
Apache reservation. This reservation doesn't have any hot
springs, but traditionally everywhere the Chiricahua Apache travel
in their ancestral land they had hot springs. It was
another reason why their home areas were in that region because
of the sacred hot springs in that area.
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HM: So the reservation that you'r on
now, was this originally where the
Apache were in the beginning or is it somewhere different?
Harlyn Geronimio:
Well there are several Apache tribes. This one is called the Mescalaro
Apache tribe. Back around 1912, the US government
took the Chiricahua here on this reservation with the Mescalero
tribe, they rounded up the Lepans Apaches from Mexico and
around the tip of Texas. I mean the Big Ben area, Eagle Pass, and
then they herded them up here to this reservation and told them to stay here and told them this your your home now.
When they did that, all the land that was originally theirs was
lost. They didn't get it back so they are concentrated here on
the Apache reservation. Besides other people that are
claiming, Lepans, Chiricahua, presently now that's just for a
monetary gain. There is none other than the people they put on
the reservation here. We got a lot of wannabes up there.
HM: How far is that
from where you are?
Harlyn Geronimo;
You mean Big Ben?
HM: Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo: Its'
a good, maybe 500 miles south, that's Mescalero.
HM: What is the reservation you live on like today?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well as you know it's a sovereign nation. There are several rights
that the tribe has given up to the US government like where
they cannot make treaties with other nations but it's a
sovereign nation. We have our own court system, our own
legislature, our own tribal council, executive branch, also
within that a judicial branch. It's all set up similar to the US
government, but a lot of laws are implemented and geared towards
the tradition. Some of the laws applied here that was passed by
congress, the saving major crimes act. That applies here. Also
the Constitution that the tribe has is sanctioned by the
Interior Department, the BIA (the Bureau of Indian Affairs). Just
like for the police department, the bureau is providing that
area. They provide the police department. It was under the
bureau, now it's under the Justice Department. They have about 10
police officers and a captain, but I see presently this
administration is signing off on a lot of sovereignty rights.
Like the games compact; they signed that last year with the
state of New Mexico. Which I feel is wrong because of the
sovereign nation and we don't contract any services to
other federal or state entities.
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Mescalero
Apache reservation |
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HM: Can you tell
me about what happened to the missing money in the gambling
casino?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes that was 1993 to 1998 I believe. There was 400 million
missing.
HM:
How much?
Harlyn Geronimo:
400 million.
HM:
Did anyone figure out what happened to it?
Harlyn Geronimo:
No at the same time the FBI was also looking into the casino.
They heard that money was being taken, but it was never really
thoroughly investigated. After maybe two years, the president of
the tribe died. The president (Chino) was blamed for that and
after he died they stopped doing an investigation. Up to now, we
don't know where that money is or where it went. But after the
president of the tribe died, they stopped all the
investigations. This was brought to them maybe four years
earlier, that money was being taken and they were actually
monitoring the person; the president of the tribe taking money
and delivering the cash to a third party. They were just
observing it.
HM:
So who owned this casino?
Harlyn Geronimo:
The tribe. The Apache tribe.
HM:
So when you say the Apache tribe, you mean like the Apache
government?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, the Mescalero Apache government.
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HM:
So, did it belong to all the people or just certain members of
the government?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well anything that is established here, anything that is
run by the tribe belongs to the tribe, the people.
HM:
So the money should have been distributed to all of the members
of the tribe?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes it was supposed to go into a general fund of the tribe.
HM:
Ok. Does the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) have anything to do
with this?
Harlyn Geronimo:
They are supposed to see that everything is run smoothly.
JL:
Like in terms of how the money is distributed to the people?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes.
HM:
So the money was in a bank account?
Harlyn Geronimo:
No what happened was, it was taken from the casino.
JL:
Like cash?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes cash, some of it cash. I think other parts of it was
taken through other means.
HM: How are the
Senators connected
to this case?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Indirectly. One of the senator's son in-laws was the assistant
attorney general for New Mexico. That's why the investigation
never got off the ground.
HM:
Ok. Now I understand.
Harlyn Geronimo:
It's something that people will be surprised if they read about
it.
HM:
Yes I think so. Did any other newspapers or national media cover this?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well after the person died they did cover it and found that a lot
of money was missing. Here again the FBI stopped their
investigation after he died. They said that they could not find
anything, but remember all along. The son-in-law to one of the
big senators was the assistant attorney general. The US
attorney for New Mexico, for this area.
HM:
On another subject. I
heard somewhere that your great grandfather was able to walk
without leaving footprints? Is this true?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, he could actually go from one place to another place without leaving any footprints. That's part of the power he
possessed. Internal power.
HM: That's because
of the medicine he had?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes,
because of the medicine.
HM: I remember you told
me a story once where he was being chased by the Calvary and he
called the coyotes to help him.
Harlyn Geronimo:
Well what happened was they were about to catch up with him when
they were traveling and on the war path, fighting for their
freedom and their homeland. They usually have the women
folks, little kids, babies in that group, the band itself and
they had to give the woman folks and kids time to get ahead of the
war party. So what he usually did, not on only one occasion, but
several times, he actually stopped and he raised his arms, when
the Calvary were approaching around the mountain, around the
bend. He would wait and start calling the spirits and by the
time they came around the corner, you would see a pack of wolves
or coyotes running by.
HM:
You told me one time Geronimo had ESP.
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Harlyn Geronimo: Yes,
he actually had ESP. He actually got information from other
warriors when they were in combat or in warfare out here.
HM: So that's how
they communicated, Lozen and him and the others?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, but a lot of this information regarding the ESP and the
medicine itself, you know its very secret, so they kept it
confidential. Very secretive up to this date. It still is.
HM:
Did the
US Calvary know about Geronimo's supernatural abilities?
Harlyn Geronimo:
No they tried not to talk about it within the treaties' signing
and other times they were in confinement; to not give out
too much
information. It was concealed to where nobody talks about it.
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HM: Ok.
The oral tradition that your great grandmother Kate told you about Geronimo's life;
would you say it is very different from the autobiography?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
it is. After reading it and putting it in perspective,
there is a big difference from what I was told. They didn't
put in a lot of information about how the Calvary attacked the
villages and actually killed the women and children and the
elderly, throwing the babies up in the air, onto the bayonets.
Things like that.
HM: The American
Calvary?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes. Grabbing the babies by their legs and swinging them around,
against the wagon wheels; things like that.
HM: How awful. So this guy Asa
Daklugie and SM Barrett kept this out. They probably didn't want
to put that in because he was going to show it to President
Ulysses S.
Grant.
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, you know it was censored. So a lot of it was taken out of
that context.
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HM: I wanted to ask
you about the other chief Victorio. Was he Geronimo's cousin?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Victorio was a relation, but he grew up with Victorio. Victorio
was also with the eastern Chiricahua tribe. The same tribe
Geronmio was from.
HM: And he was also
in Fort Sills prison?
Harlyn Geronimo: He
died about 6 years earlier in 1880 fighting the Mexican Calvary
in Tracastea Mexico.
HM: So who was the
other chief's son that he was in Fort Sills with?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Naiche, Cohises son.
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Harlyn Geronimo. Photograph by Roy Lohr. |
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Sign the
petition
ww.petitiononline.com/Geronimo/petition.html
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HM: Do you have
tribal sovereignty today?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes
we do have tribal sovereignty, here in Mescarlero, where we are
a nation within a nation. We still have most of our rights
as a tribe but the states and congress are still chipping away
at our sovereignty. I don't know when they are going to stop. I
don't know when they are going to realize that these tribes were
here before the US government.
HM: How are they
chipping away at it?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Implementing laws that are passed by Congress and applying it to
the reservations.
HM: What is the
Senator's name from New Mexico?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Pete
Domenici He
is from Arizona. He has been on the Indian Affairs Committee in
Washington. He has been very helpful to the Native American tribes, so I think he is a good person. Very
Reasonable and knowledgeable in Indian affairs.
HM:
That's good. Do you have the
Bureau of Indian Affairs where you are?
Harlyn Geronimo:
Yes, we have it here. It's all across the United States.
Everywhere you have a tribe that is on a reservation. You
know maybe Pueblos in New Mexico; they have several big
pueblos here and also and if you go to California they have the
Mission Indians, the smaller tribes. Small land base everywhere you find a tribe the bureau is there. I believe they have
a fiduciary duty to the tribe to oversee the function.
Continue to
PART 6
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