John LeKay: There's a foot note in Geronimo's autobiography, edited by SM Barrat, where he says that your great grandfather's father, Geronimo's father, had married someone from the Bedonkohee tribe. He says that he moved in with them and because of this Geronimo had lost his right to becoming a chief. Is this a mistake that the writer made?

Harlyn Geronimio: Well, there are two ways, that according to tradition, in how to become a chief. It's by hereditary rites and by being appointed by your warriors or the senior people within the warrior society. So, when he was going into Mexico, fighting the Mexican armies with levels of different warriors, at different times. Over the years, he got to a point where he had actually been made a chief, by other chiefs that were also with him at that time. And then the warrior circle gave him that honor. These are the things that you barely hear in the articles that are written about him. But there was some animosity with several of his close relations and this you don't hear about either. And just like the person that wrote that book, he had an interpreter Daklugie. There was a feud going on at that time, and he didn't come across with the correct information.

JL: It says in the book, that your great grandfather had said, "I was no chief and never had been and this honor was given to me."  Is this the reason why he was made a chief because they killed his wife and his children?

 

Harlyn Geronimo: You see he had his own band and then other supposed chiefs, other Apaches joined his band. That's where there is a conflict. One person would say he wasn't and another would say he was. There are conflicting stories in that area. Once you get a bunch of leaders together, that's what is going to transpire. So that's what happened. They were sort of taking his title away and other people were giving it to him and other people taking it away again.

Daklugie was also interpreting this. He, Geronimo, didn't know how to write. He did know how to spell his name, but not as good as Daklugie did. So there was a lot of information that he twisted.

JL: So these words that he said your great grandfather said  "I was no chief and never had been and this honor was given to me."   He twisted these words?

Harlyn Geronimo: Let me explain.  Let me distinguish what are you are trying to convey to me. When your a leader of a band of Apaches, you are a chief. Back then, they did not know what a chief was because that is an English term. In Apache, we don't have a name for chief. Do you get what I'm saying?

JL: Yes.

Harlyn Geronimo: This area when they say nanta, the person that's in charge; that's in a position that calls for complete control of the tribe. But it's not a chief.  The term that's used came from the Englishmen and here when you rise to that level through the ranks, the tribe, the band, it's a signature of leadership; what we call "un".  That's what it's called.

JL: So it basically means leader then. Like a leader of the tribe?

Harlyn Geronimo: It means more than the leader of the tribe. I guess you could say supreme commander. I guess you could say it's similar to a position of a king. If you put it in more specific terms. It's not a chief, it's more royalty.

JL:  So to get that position, like you said before, you would have to have that in your blood, or be born into it?

JL: Daklugie, was the son of what's his name, Jah?

Harlyn Geronimio: Jah chief. And also you can pronounce it Whoa.

JL: So was this man Barett the editor, who changed the facts, or was it Daklugie, the interpreter?

Harlyn Geronimo: No, he changed some of the information, orally, in Apache that was given to him. Mostly all of it. According to my great grandmother, she didn't approve of the book because a lot of the information had changed. And she was upset also. At that time, also the interpreter was elected president. Here in Mescalero. So he was untouchable. So my great grandmother confronted him. He got to be very powerful so he disregarded the conversation and everything directed at him.

JL; So then this guy, Asa Daklugie changed the facts because of political reasons?

Harlyn Geronimio: Political reasons.

JL: Is that because he wanted to present Geronimo, in a negative light?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, that's right. So a lot of information was twisted and not the exact information, that was given to him, that was recorded.

JL Do you know if Asa Daklugie has family around today?

Harlyn Geronimio: Let's see, let me think. I think the only people that are left from that family are third generation. Maybe first and 2nd, maybe.

JL:  Did they capture him first?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Yes they did.

JL: Another thing that stood out in my mind was when Geronimo's first wife was murdered by the Mexicans along with his 3 children and his mother. The book said that he married again. In your tradition, would somebody have gotten married again, that fast?

Harlyn Geronimio: No, in our Apache tradition, the Chirichaua tradition, you have to wait at least a good 3 years before you get married again. Even nowadays, it's like that. 4 is a good number. 4 is the sacred number. They usually go by that. But here again, they are twisting the facts.

JL: What is the divorce rate like today on the reservations?

Harlyn Geronimio:  Right now, for the younger generations, it's very high, because of the outside influences.  We are situated where there's about 3 or 4 small towns outside the reservations and there are job sites too.  There's a lot of people from off the reservation that work on the reservation. A lot of younger adults and I believe it's a big contributor to the high divorce rate.

JL: When the Spanish came over, were they allowed to marry any of the Apache women or was this forbidden?

Harlyn Geronimo: It was forbidden?

Harlyn Geronimio: I think he did the same thing again here. Everything was given to him. The campaigns with the Mexican army, the Calvary and also the medicine itself, but apparently  it was left out.

JL: Did Geronimo practice his medicine in prison?

Harlyn Geronimo:  Well, one area he didn't practice was the herbal part because he can't get to any major plant that he used to cure different illnesses.  He still practiced the spiritual part, but not that often because there were people observing him and kept him from practicing the religion.

JL: The way he is presented in the book, it makes him sound like he was just very angry, wanting to fight all the time against the Mexicans. I mean I could understand after what they did to his wife and family, but was that exaggerated, maybe?

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JL: What was he like as a person? How would you describe him from what Kate told you? Was he funny, kind, intelligent?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, she talked about him a lot. Mostly the part when they were in actual warfare with the Mexicans, and US Calvary. She mentioned that he was very knowledgeable, superbly intelligent, that other tribes couldn't measure up to their superiority in warfare. That his warriors were trained in the same fashion to where they were untrackable. The military and the Mexican army can't track them once they get into the forest or the desert and the power that he had was unmatchable. That's why they had about 5,000 US military out in the field looking for him, but they couldn't find him.

Also that he was very kind, he loved walking into the forest with the grand kids, the younger kids that he had. He showed the children how to hunt deer, turkey and other wildlife; but he was very kind and intelligent. The word that she always used was (inaudible). In Apache, that means very smart, very intelligent. He had humour too. He wasn't serious all the time, only when there were other issues he was involved in. He was a very kind man within the tribe itself.

JL: In the photographs, he looks very serious?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes.  He was aware of this when the photos were taken. He was out in the field when they took several pictures of him, back in the military installation, military prisons, that's why he looked very serious at that time

 

US Calvary

Harlyn Geronimio: That's right.

JL: Then later on at some point, General Miles came to Fort Sills and Geronomo spoke to him. Is it true that after this conversation, General Miles told him that he didn't have to work anymore?

Harlyn Geronimo: That's correct, and then he confronted him about the land, the freedom, but he didn't really answer him. Here again, he was promised by the same person. If you look at the whole scenario, if you pinpoint the source behind all this, you come to a conclusion - that it's the mining companies.

JL: The mining companies?

Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, and and the big shots back in the east coast are behind this.

JL: Mining for gold?

Harlyn Geronimo: Gold yes and minerals.

JL; So, they just wanted the land then to do this? Around Nevada and New Mexico?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, and anyone that got in their way, by termination or whichever way they felt they could accomplish their priorities. I guess, at that time.

JL: So were the mining companies working with the US government?

Harlyn Geronimio: Well, these mining companies had people on the east coast that were shareholders. Like these people in Congress and different parts of the government at that time that had big influence in this area.

 

 

JL: And they were shareholders in the mining companies?

Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, they were directing the military to finish off the Apaches, the Apache Nation, to get us. It's all about greed you know.  And presently, the same scenario exists in here and in the different parts of the world by the big companies that are after different minerals.

JL:  I know, again now in South Dakota. I found out last week, somebody told me, that they want to start uranium mining again.  There is another company in South America, in Peru, this big company that wants to do some digging for gold in Peru near this sacred mountain.

Harlyn Geronimio: I heard some of the big companies were going into South America. 

JL:  So it really came down to money then?

Harlyn Geronimio: Just like now you know, the oil. 

JL: Like in Iraq?

Harlyn Geronimio: The big companies are actually going into these regions, like the Middle East.

JL:  That makes a lot of sense.  They will go anywhere, whether it's Iraq or wherever it is.  That's all they care about.

Harlyn Geronimio:  They knew why these people were coming at that time.  But, being an Apache you know, in that time period, they respect Mother Earth, they tried not to disturb the Earth itself.  Not to desecrate the Earth by digging for gold or mining or cutting down trees, of that nature, or burning the whole forest up.  They were very close to mother nature, they just took what they needed at that time for survival.

Continue to part 5