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Heyoka Magazine: There's a foot note in Geronimo's autobiography, edited by SM
Barrat, where he says that your great grandfather's father, Geronimo's
father, had married someone from the Bedonkohee tribe. He says
that he moved in
with them and because of this Geronimo had lost his right to
becoming a chief. Is this a mistake that the writer made?
Harlyn Geronimio: Well, there are two ways, that according to
tradition, in how to become a chief. It's by hereditary rites
and by being appointed by your warriors or the senior people
within the warrior society. So, when he was going into
Mexico, fighting the Mexican armies with levels of
different warriors, at different times. Over the years, he got
to a point where he had actually been made a chief, by other
chiefs that were also with him at that time. And then the
warrior circle gave him that honor. These are the things
that you barely hear in the articles that are written about
him. But there was some animosity with several of his close
relations and this you don't hear about either. And just like the
person that wrote that book, he had an interpreter Daklugie.
There was a feud going on at that time, and he didn't come
across with the correct information.
HM: It says in the book, that your great grandfather had
said, "I was no chief and never had been and this honor was
given to me." Is this the reason why he was made a chief
because they killed his wife and his children?
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Harlyn
Geronimo: You see he had his own band and then other supposed
chiefs, other Apaches joined his band. That's where there is a
conflict. One person would say he wasn't and another would say
he was. There are conflicting stories in that area. Once you get a
bunch of leaders together, that's what is going to transpire. So
that's what happened. They were sort of taking his title away and
other people were giving it to him and other people taking it away
again.
Daklugie was also interpreting this. He, Geronimo, didn't
know how to write. He did know how to spell his name, but not
as good as Daklugie did. So there was a lot of information
that he twisted.
HM: So these words that he said your great grandfather said
"I was no chief and never had been and this honor was given
to me." He twisted these words?
Harlyn Geronimo: Let me explain. Let me distinguish
what are
you are trying to convey to me. When your a leader of a band
of Apaches, you are a chief. Back then, they did not know
what a chief was because that is an English term. In Apache,
we don't have a name for chief. Do you get what I'm saying?
HM: Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo: This area when they say nanta, the person
that's in charge; that's in a position that calls for
complete control of the tribe. But it's not a chief. The term
that's used came from the Englishmen and here when you rise
to that level through the ranks, the tribe, the band, it's a
signature of leadership; what we call "un". That's what
it's called.
HM: So it basically means leader then. Like a leader of the
tribe?
Harlyn Geronimo: It means more than the leader of the tribe.
I guess you could say supreme commander. I guess you could
say it's similar to a position of a king. If you put it in
more specific terms. It's not a chief, it's more royalty.
HM: So to get that position, like you said before, you
would have to have that in your blood, or be born into it?
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Harlyn Geronimo: You can be born into it and you can also
earn it in combat, in battles.
HM: So then with your great grandfather Geronimo, he earned
it, but he also had this because of his father being a
chief?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he did and then his great grandfather was
also a chief.
HM:
Ok now that makes it very clear.
Harlyn Geronimo: A chief , if you look at it, is not really a
term to use because this position is a very powerful position,
more royalty involved.
HM: Another thing that I read in the book, said that your great
grandfather was just a a war leader for the battles. What
about during times of peace, was he considered the
same?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, he was the same because the system is
set up where they are recognized as a warrior. During the time
of peace or during the time of war. So they earned that
title.
HM:
Yes, because it kind of said in the book that he was more like a
war leader for the battles. That he would organize the
battles.
Harlyn Geronimo: Well, my great grandfather was very
knowledgeable in warfare because it was passed on and
also learned in a classroom, but also in a smaller group.
He was taught the
different techniques they used in battles, the hit and run, the
ambush. For instance, when they go out hunting, they used the
same tactics they used when they would go out and hunt down a
man like if they were going to hunt down a deer. It's carried
over from that to hunting and then into the battle fields.
HM:
Daklugie, was the son of what's his name, Jah?
Harlyn Geronimio: Jah chief. And also you can pronounce it Whoa.
HM:
So was this man Barett the editor, who changed the facts, or
was it Daklugie, the interpreter?
Harlyn Geronimo: No, he changed some of the information, orally,
in Apache that was given to him. Mostly all of it. According to my great grandmother,
she didn't approve of the
book because a lot of the information had changed. And she was
upset also. At that time, also the interpreter was elected
president. Here in Mescalero. So he was untouchable. So my
great grandmother confronted him. He got to be very powerful so
he disregarded the conversation and everything directed at him.
HM: So then this guy, Asa Daklugie changed the facts because of
political reasons?
Harlyn Geronimio: Political reasons.
HM:
Is that because he wanted to present Geronimo, in a negative light?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, that's right. So a lot of information was
twisted and not the exact information, that was given to him, that was recorded.
HM:
Do you know if Asa Daklugie has family around today?
Harlyn Geronimio: Let's see, let me think. I think the only
people that are left from that family are third generation.
Maybe first and 2nd, maybe.
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HM:
Do they live in New Mexico?
Harlyn Geronimio: They live here in Mescalero, but they
are really not familiar with the history.
HM:
They're not?
Harlyn Geronimio: No, they're not.
HM:
So how did they kill Mangus Colorados?
Harlyn Geronimio: That's one of the Chiriachaua Apache
chiefs from Geronimo's band, Mangus Colorados.
HM:
And the way he died, did they kill him inside of a tent? Someone
threw a massive stone on top of his chest while he was asleep?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes they did. I was told the
reason they killed him was because he was getting a lot of the Chirichaua Apaches together to fight the western movement; and
he was accomplishing a lot at that time. And at the same
time period, the Cavalries killed another chief up north, I
believe it was Crazy Horse. I don't know who it was, but it was
at that same time period. I assume they did this
intentionally to stop the fighting, because these people were
very knowledgeable and also very superior in their physical condition.
Even the military couldn't keep up with them. So
that's one way to destroy the leadership.
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HM:
Did they capture him first?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes they did.
HM:
Another thing that stood out in my mind was when Geronimo's
first wife was murdered by the Mexicans along with his 3
children and his mother. The book said that he married again. In
your tradition, would somebody have gotten married again, that
fast?
Harlyn Geronimio: No, in our Apache tradition, the Chirichaua
tradition, you have to wait at least a good 3 years before you
get married again. Even nowadays, it's like that. 4 is a good
number. 4 is the sacred number. They usually go by that. But
here again, they are twisting the facts.
HM:
What is the divorce rate like today on the reservations?
Harlyn Geronimio: Right now, for the younger generations, it's
very high, because of the outside influences. We are situated where
there's about 3 or 4 small towns outside the reservations and
there are job sites too. There's a lot of people from off the
reservation that work on the reservation. A lot of younger
adults and I believe it's a big contributor to the high divorce
rate.
HM:
When the Spanish came over, were they allowed to marry any of
the Apache women or was this forbidden?
Harlyn Geronimo: It was forbidden?
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HM:
So, are there many mixed bloods?
Harlyn Geronimo: Presently?
HM:
Yes.
Harlyn Geronimo: Well presently, we are situated in
central New Mexico and we have 3 or 4 towns around the
reservation. And the majority of the school kids go
to school at Tularoso, which is on the west side of the
reservation. I would say about 15 miles, and then on the east
side we have the Ruidosuo. I would say it's located out there
about 4 or 5 miles near the reservation. So with this many
students going through these two schools, we presently have a lot
of inter-marriages now.
HM:
Is there any prejudice on the reservation between mixed bloods
and full bloods?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, well, you know the older people I've
talked to, they complain about it. About integration, because
the more tribal members inter-marry, to them, the culture is sort
of fading away. It's forgotten.
HM:
Another thing, he didn't really talk about his medicine in the
book. He mentions that he knew how to cut out bullets and arrows. He did say how the Apache got the medicine and herbs from Usen.
Harlyn Geronimio: That's the Apache God.
HM:
Yes, Usen, but he didn't really talk about the medicine. Do you
think it is because he didn't want to talk about it, or
because this Daklugie guy cut it out again?
Harlyn Geronimio: I think he did the same thing again here.
Everything was given to him. The campaigns with the Mexican
army, the Calvary and also the medicine itself, but apparently
it was left out.
JL: Did
Geronimo practice his medicine in prison?
Harlyn Geronimo: Well, one area he didn't practice was the
herbal part because he can't get to any major plant that he used
to cure different illnesses. He still practiced the
spiritual part, but not that often because there were people
observing him and kept him from practicing the religion.
JL:
The way he is presented in the book, it makes him sound like he
was just very angry, wanting to fight all the time against the
Mexicans. I mean I could understand after what they did to his
wife and family, but was that exaggerated, maybe?
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Harlyn Geronimio: That part he was pretty upset, because the
Chirichaua were there for a good fifteen to 2,000 years
comfortably and in harmony with mother nature. They weren't
starving. They had everything in that mountainous region.
When
the Anglos and the Mexicans started shooting up on his homeland
and started killing his people cruelly, unexpectedly, when they
weren't on guard. They kept on continuing until they got the
tribe down to a good, maybe a thousand. You are going to be
upset.
I
was told that he was very upset, because he killed Cavalrys and
the Mexican Calvary's killed about half of the Chirchaua Apaches.
At that time, they knew they were after the land, and he tried to get all the Apache nations to go against the
western movement at the time, but some of them didn't want to
fight. He talked about the babies, the kids and even the old
folks that were killed fighting the different battles they
were in. Being a warrior growing up in that area, you are
constantly facing your adversaries. It's going to affect you
mentally. Then after that, being in prison for 28 years,
incarcerated for fighting for your homeland, freedom for your
people. This is what the government did to these
people. They are going to be upset.
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HM:
What was he like as a person? How would you describe him from
what Kate told you? Was he funny, kind, intelligent?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, she talked about him a lot. Mostly the
part when they were in actual warfare with the Mexicans, and US
Calvary. She mentioned that he was very knowledgeable, superbly
intelligent, that other tribes couldn't measure up to their
superiority in warfare. That his warriors were trained in the
same fashion to where they were untrackable. The military and
the Mexican army can't track them once they get into the forest
or the desert and the power that he had was unmatchable. That's
why they had about 5,000 US military out in the field looking
for him, but they couldn't find him.
Also that he was very kind, he loved walking into the forest
with the grand kids, the younger kids that he had. He showed the
children how to hunt deer, turkey and other wildlife; but he was
very kind and intelligent. The word that she always used was (inaudible).
In Apache, that means very smart, very intelligent.
He had humour too. He wasn't serious all the time, only
when there were other issues he was involved in. He was a very
kind man within the tribe itself.
HM:
In the photographs, he looks very serious?
Harlyn Geronimio:
Yes. He was aware of this when the photos were
taken. He was out in the field when they took several
pictures of him, back in the military installation,
military prisons, that's why he looked very serious at
that time
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HM:
In your culture, when someone is killed, does someone have to
take revenge for this person? Is there like an obligation?
Harlyn Geronimo: Well, traditionally, if you put the time frame
back a good 150 years back, then that was one of the main
information that was given to the warriors. Maybe 10 or
even 20 of the warriors that were killed. They had to
settle this in a way where the whole village was wiped out.
So you know, it's not one or two that are going to pay for the
lives of maybe so many warriors. The retaliation is going to be
a whole village or a small settlement.
HM:
So, is that one of the reasons that kept the cycle of wars with the
Mexicans continuing, because one side would kill someone and
then the other would take revenge and it would go back and
forth?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, it would. Not only that, but the main reason
is they were coming onto the Apache territory. They kept coming
year after year even though a lot of them were killed. It
was a constant practice for the Mexicans to try to take the land
from the Apaches.
HM:
Were the Comanche's enemies of the Apaches at that time?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes ,they were also enemies because they were
used as scouts for the Calvarys and they were pretty close
communicating with the Mexican armies also. And then
besides that, they were also trying to come into the Apache
territories and take land from them, but the Apache had put up a
big fight on this side of the valley.
HM:
Where is the Comanche territory?
Harlyn Geronimo: Part of it is in Texas, part of it in Okalahoma.
HM: After the
battle of kas ki yah, Geronimo went looking for more revenge on the
Mexicans and two of his companions were killed and he was blamed
for this. He had no response and nothing to say. Do you know
if this was true that his people blamed him?
Harlyn Geronimo: That's true, you know in situations, some family
members would resort to that because this is a very close
system. Within the society itself, the families are
very close and in situations they usually resort to things of
this nature, because usually there's families involved. The
warriors would have at that time 150 years ago, some of them
would have one or two wives and they had to support the
families. So, usually there was a big dispute in that area.
HM:
We talked a little bit about this earlier. This General Miles
and how he told Geronimo that if he would agree to the treaty,
he would give him land, with animals and people to work his
land. Then as soon as he signed it, he put him into a hard labor
camp for two years.
Harlyn Geronimio: That's right.
HM:
Then later on at some point, General Miles came to Fort Sills
and Geronomo spoke to him. Is it true that after this
conversation, General Miles told him that he didn't have to work
anymore?
Harlyn Geronimo: That's correct, and then he confronted him
about the land, the freedom, but he didn't really answer him. Here again, he was promised by the same person. If you look at
the whole scenario, if you pinpoint the source behind all this,
you come to a conclusion - that it's the mining companies.
HM:
The mining companies?
Harlyn Geronimo: Yes, and and the big shots back in the east
coast are behind this.
HM:
Mining for gold?
Harlyn Geronimo: Gold yes and minerals.
HM: So, they just wanted the land then to do this? Around Nevada and
New Mexico?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, and anyone that got in their way, by
termination or whichever way they felt they could accomplish
their priorities. I guess, at that time.
HM:
So were the mining companies working with the US government?
Harlyn Geronimio: Well, these mining companies had people on the
east coast that were shareholders. Like these people in Congress
and different parts of the government at that time that had big
influence in this area.
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Holes
left in the ground from ISL uranium mining on Navajo
land today |
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HM:
And they were shareholders in the mining companies?
Harlyn Geronimio: Yes, they were directing the military to
finish off the Apaches, the Apache Nation, to get us. It's all
about greed you know. And presently, the same scenario
exists in here and in the different parts of the world by the big
companies that are after different minerals.
HM:
I know, again now in South Dakota. I found out last week, somebody told me, that they want to
start uranium mining again. There is another company in
South America, in Peru, this big company that wants to do some
digging for gold in Peru near this sacred mountain.
Harlyn Geronimio: I heard some of the big companies were going
into South America.
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HM:
So it really came down to money then?
Harlyn Geronimio: Just like now you know, the oil.
HM: Like in Iraq?
Harlyn Geronimio: The big companies
are actually going into these
regions, like the Middle East.
HM:
That makes a lot of sense. They will go anywhere, whether it's
Iraq or wherever it is. That's all they care about.
Harlyn Geronimio: They knew why these people were coming at
that time. But, being an Apache you know, in that time
period, they respect Mother Earth, they tried not to disturb the
Earth itself. Not to desecrate the Earth by digging for
gold or mining or cutting down trees, of that nature, or burning
the whole forest up. They were very close to mother
nature, they just took what they needed at that time for
survival.
Continue to part 5
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