RACHEL COHEN

INTERVIEW WITH REBEKAH WINDMILLER

 

From If The Shoe Fits

 

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RW: Could you say a bit about how you became a dancer/choreographer?

 

RC: Hmm, I started dancing pretty young . . .my mother danced and I think my older sister and I were enrolled in some movement classes.  My sister kept taking ballet and then eventually I started I think because of her.  I always loved it and it became my main after school activity all the way through high school, although I eventually discovered jazz and that was more my thing.  My first foray into choreography was at the end of high school I did a group piece for the concert, I think to Enya. . . Then in college I met Claire Mallardi.  I probably am still dancing and choreographing because of her.  It was a big struggle for me to decide where to go to school, I wanted to study dance but I also was a good student and the family pressure was to do something academic.  I ended up at Harvard, which didn't have a dance program per se but had an extra curricular program that you had to pay extra for.  Claire Mallardi was an incredible woman who had never been to college herself but had studied with Martha Graham and Hanya Holm and Cunningham and all the horses mouths and danced with Jack Moore and the New Dance Group and in the original Kiss Me, Kate - she opened up a whole new world for me.  She taught about spirals and triplets and energy, and dance was not a discipline with her but a way of life.  Her choreography class was really incredible - she had us work without music, to make the movement primary, and she somehow knew what we were all trying to get at before we did.  She worked with us to get us to say more clearly what we were trying to say, rather than telling us how she would have said it. 

 

Anyway, technique was never my strong suit and in retrospect I think if I had been enrolled in a "real" dance program I might have given up.  Instead, Claire encouraged us to follow our own talents and ideas and bizarre leanings or interests and to get at the heart of what we were doing, whatever direction that led.  I have found that my biggest "successes" come whenever I just do my own thing, rather than try to follow some prescribed path, and I think Claire is a big part of the reason I can even see that there is another path.

 

I came to New York City in 1997 and went to Mary Anthony Dance Studio, where Claire sent students who went to NY, and started creating solos for her workshop performances.  I enjoyed it and also enjoyed that people seemed to like what I did! And it grew from there.  

 

RW: "If the Shoe Fits" seems to weave together your own version of a twisted and  tangled Cinderella. As each new character is introduced, I was able to  recognize the familiar story line. In the beginning, the characters are all  confined by ropes somehow and the backdrop seems to be a grided curtain of  rope. As the dance progresses the story becomes more convoluted, taking many turns away from the way we expect it to turn out. How did you come to decide  to work within the frame of the Cinderella story?

 

 

Photographs by  Robert Polkosnik. ©    From  If The Shoe Fits.  2005.  Michelle Vargo is center, and l-to-r are Katie Brack, Karen de Luna, and Adrian Jevicki.  Costumes and set are by Agata Oleksiak.

 

RC: It started out as a way to solve a problem.  Before I create work I usually have been thinking a lot and have had various ideas that bounce around in my brain, sometimes for years.  They always tell you not to choreograph in your head, that it should come out of movement, but I do a lot in my head before I end up making any movement.  I had a few smaller pieces that I had done that involved cleaning, or my collection of old vacuum cleaners; I knew I wanted to work with dough somehow; and I was working on a solo in which I'm wearing a mask made of sponge.  I end up dunking my head in a bucket of water, squeezing it out, and cleaning the floor with it.  I was making a costume for the solo and I had a strong almost thunderbolt that it should be a sort of Cinderella character.  From there some other pieces of the puzzle started to fall together, and fairy tales seemed like a good link to pull together some of the disparate-yet-somehow-related bits and pieces floating around in my brain. Once I had a sort of rallying theme it made it much easier for me to move forward on the larger project, because I had a throughline to fall back on if I got stuck.  Sometimes it's overwhelming to have any option in the world open to me, so I like to pin down a concept to riff off of.  I can choose to stick to it or not, but it's a foundation to work from.  Every once in a while I got a little to stuck trying to make things fit into the fairy-tale idea, but then I reminded myself that it was all made-up anyway and so it didn't really matter!

 

People make the associations anyway.  Although one friend of mine came to the show who had never heard the Cinderella story, and so he was a bit baffled, although he enjoyed the show anyway (I think).

 

I think I also glommed on to the Cinderella theme because a lot of my work tends to deal with themes of being a woman; living up to expectations; responsibility; and trying to reconcile the way things are with the way I think they should be.  I think we are strongly influenced by the stories we've been told, the television we watch, the myths that we grow up with, and so working with fairy tales resonated with me as a way to tackle all these issues, while being able to dive into an imaginary, fantastical realm

 

RW: I love the image of you mopping up the floor with your hair! I can see how the Cinderella idea developed from there. In "If the Shoe Fits" the first image we see is a man (the prince?). He moves his arms and hands around his body, discovers a pair of shoes with body-lengthed laces and, like a self-imposed marionette, he dances with the laces (or do the laces dance him?). He looks like a puppet. There are other places in the work where performers are tied up: the 2 step-sisters' hair is all tied up together, Cinderella can move only so far into the space because she's bound up by ropes as well and the back drop seems to be a grid of ropes.  All this roped-constriction made me feel compassion for these characters and their inability to move beyond their constraints and ignorance.

 

How did the theme of 'all tied up' come into the work and what is your thinking about it?

 

RC: I had the image of the two sisters in my mind for a long time, and never was quite sure how to achieve it, or what to do with it.  I think in their case the weaving together of their hair was about a sense of two halves of yourself that you can't necessarily see but have to always be aware of, and are always dependent upon, because you can't do anything without taking that other half into consideration.  There was also a sense of family ties, literally. 

 

The shoelaces came out of some improvisations we did in rehearsal. Originally I thought that the three shoe salesmen, as we called the characters, should be tied together by their shoelaces.  That became somewhat impractical and we played around with these long shoelaces, like puppet strings, which I think had the overtones both of manipulation, and of being tied to your job, or duty.  There is also a running theme in most of my work that we don't have entire control over our own bodies, or destinies.  I just thought we'd illustrate it a bit more directly.  

 

With Cinderella and the backdrop, again the ropes sort of symbolize her drudgery and also that she was a prisoner, both literally and perhaps within her own mind.  Agata Oleksiak, an artist I work with often, works primarily in crochet right now, and we thought that the crocheted costumes and backdrop worked very well with the idea of strings attached, binding, weaving stories, leaving gaps, and the essence of something very homely and "women's work" oriented.  There is a lot of unraveling that comes later on in the story, both as the story unfolds and also as the characters develop.  It's a pretty literal illustration of freeing one's mind, I suppose, but also makes for some pretty cool stage effects.

 

Photographs by  Robert Polkosnik. ©        From  If The Shoe Fits.  2005.  The performers from left to right are: Christopher Woodrell, Simon Harding, Michelle Vargo, kelly Kocinski, and Karen de Luna. 

 

RW: The theme of women and their work is certainly prominent. The Fairy-God Mother character's introductory solo is just so touching and sweet. It's quite funny when she enters sitting on a vacuum cleaner, rowing it like a boat with her mop.  Her wordless song based on the 'ahh' sound really drew me into her as a loving savior....especially when 'Cinderella' appears and they sing into the mop as microphone, and dance a tender duet.  Later the 'Mother' figure dances a duet with one of the 'Shoe Sales Men'. Again, it  seemed to be a soft and supportive encounter as the woman echoed his movements, letting him lead and set the tone. I began to wonder about this character as taking on a motherly role. However, the next scene brings out the entire cast. It turns darker while the music layers storm sound with train whistles (is that what I hear?) and Spanish guitar music. This moment seems to be a shifting point for all the characters.  I'm curious about how the work progressed from more or less recognizable characters in the story to a group of people struggling through the unexpected obstacles and tasks you give them in the dance. How did you approach the development of these characters?

  

RC: Wow, this one made me think . . .

 

I think part of it was simply schizophrenia.  I am not sure if I do dance, or theater, or clown, or performance art.  I had people in the cast who were actors and clowns, and initially I wanted to develop characters and have through lines for each and develop a story that way, rather than doing a “dance performance" per se.  We did some of that but I wasn’t sure how to lead it or where to go with it, so it became a bit more vague.  Which I actually prefer, I think, but I wasn’t sure at the time.  Part of it was also who was at rehearsals the days we did certain sections, and then deciding to leave people in their places even if the character development took a bit of a shift.

In the case of the Fairy Godmother, that solo was actually adapted from a solo I had done a few years ago and wasn’t ready to let go.  It seemed perfect for the Fairy Godmother.  (I had used a wonderful Duke Ellington piece with a similar ethereal singing voice but of course Chris Becker was doing original music and we didn’t want to mix in something existing.  His wife actually provided the voice and he created this incredible piece of music that was perfect.)  Then we had the characters interacting with a particular movement phrase in rehearsal and Katie and Adrian (the Fairy Godmother and Shoe Salesman) worked so well together that we decided to keep them together in the piece.  I thought it was an interesting spin to give the Fairy Godmother some needs and desires and a journey of her own – she’s always a savior but she must have her own inner life.  It’s interesting that you saw a motherly figure – some nights it came across more Mrs. Robinson, a sort of older woman guiding a young man to a sexual awakening.  We definitely saw her as a guide of sorts, but one that was also on the journey and discovering along with everyone else.

 

Using the Cinderella story as a loose structure, I think my idea (or ultimate storyline I choose to put on top of what we ended up with) was to introduce the characters but then have them head toward the “ball” be a sort of climax, a pinnacle that each of these characters was trying to reach, thinking that it would somehow change their lives.  The arrival of the Fairy Godmother and traveling salesmen brings a wind of change, and each character feels the influence of the others and their worlds up to that point start to, sometimes quite literally, unravel.  Then, the ball is in fact not the end, and life goes on after.  But the journey has changed everyone, and perhaps made them more akin to each other, in some ways. So they were made somehow equal – not by losing their identity, but by being stripped down to shared experience, or similar hopes and aspirations, insecurities and desires. Sort of starting as iconic figures and ending as human beings.  My focus also shifted a bit in terms of whether Cinderella was the protagonist – I think I wanted to make it a more democratic piece but it ended up really being about her, with some side stories.  The cast can tell you there was a lot of shifting of sections and discussions of logical progression who was who and who did what and I had sleepless nights obsessing over the storyline and segments characters and what made sense and what I wanted to say and what was coming out naturally in the process, and after a couple of months it all fell into place (or was forced) and we ended up with a sort of story that developed more like a dream, I think.  Lots of images, trails, false leads and indications, and hopefully people came away with some sense of wholeness.  I like to work that way. 

 

 

 

 

Rachel Cohen, Head shot.  From "How Many Licks" in 2003

 

RW: You mentioned you are not sure if your work is dance, theater, clown, performance art...? I think I remember reading John Rockwell's account of your work in the circus realm.  How did all these influences enter into your work?

Well, I started with dance.  I did a little bit of experimental theater in college and enjoyed the ideas and process but usually wasn't to into the results.  I also knew or learned that I wasn't going to be a great technician, and I don't know whether it was self-consciousness or lack of interest but I started to be very uncomfortable doing certain types of movement and dance, it felt wrong, basically like I was pretending.  When I got to New York I studied with Mary Anthony, who has a very dramatic approach to choreography, usually there is a story and there is almost as much acting as dancing involved.  I thought I'd study acting, but never quite clicked with it, again I liked the concepts and ideas but not the results, and it never felt like a comfortable fit. 

My friend, choreographer Ariane Anthony, invited me to do a mask and clown workshop with her teacher, Rafael Bianciotto, and while it was a bit confronting I liked the simple rules (not easy!) and the humor.  It's an approach that I think informs any kind of performance.  I knew coming out of it I didn't want to be a commedia dell'arte player but I think that's when I began to think about taking the bits that worked for me from the various things I'd tried and melding them together.  Ariane was a role model in this, as was Julie Atlas Muz, my first roommate in New York, who combines melodrama, downtown dance, burlesque, and camp and creates really interesting work.  I try to remind myself from time to time that there are plenty of other people doing those other things much better than I ever could, so I might as well do what I do.  And I've found that the truer I stay to my interests and shut out the "My work should be more like that’s, the more successful I am, at least by my measure.  I think people can tell when you are being honest (which is one of the central principles of clown and mask work, acting, etc) and when you are trying to make something that is really someone else's.  I suppose that's obvious but for me it took really experiencing it to understand.  I still struggle with it all the time, although I've gotten a lot more comfortable with my own work.  

So basically I guess the combination came about by trial and error.  It also seems to be the zeitgeist - there is a lot of crossover-type work happening right now and I guess I'm partly a product of my environment.

 

RW: How did your collaborative process with Agata Oleksiak (set & costume)  and Chris Becker (music) work? In what ways did their contributions influence the direction the piece took?

RC: When I work with others I usually approach them with an idea, I try to explain what images I have and what any background material and references I've been using.  In the case of Chris, I told him the Cinderella concept and then gave him a few tracks of music I have been using in rehearsal as inspiration.  He took those, listened to what I had to say, and came to rehearsals, and then came up with stuff that was totally different.  But while I would sometimes be dubious that a track was the right thing, often I would try it out with the movement and it would be exactly right in some way.  He has a sixth sense.  But we went back and forth a bit - he would come to rehearsals and go work on material and bring it in and try it out.  Then I would give some feedback and he would incorporate my suggestions, most of the time.  We had an ongoing dialogue and so the piece definitely unfolded with a strong influence from the direction the music was taking.

In the case of Agata, we had worked together more often.  Again, I usually start with telling her my ideas. Sometimes I have a clearer notion of what I'm looking for, but in this case I wasn't sure. I knew I wanted to incorporate silhouettes, somehow, because my favorite version of Cinderella has silhoutte cutout illustrations by Arthur Rackham. Also, her medium right now is crochet, and so we knew that was going to play an important role.  Its texture and history as women's work made it an ideal choice. There was a good deal of crocheted "wall" that Agata had created for a collaboration with Shua Group that was sitting in storage and she suggested we use that for the backdrop.  And then the idea became that these characters were sort of stepping out of the fabric, out of a storybook.  She showed me some clippings she took from magazines to illustrate some other ideas she was getting.  We have a lot of back and forth about ideas, and then how to use the backdrop, and then how to illustrate coming out of the backdrop.  We egg each other on a bit, with one suggestion leading to another.  The crocheted aprons that pulled out of the costumes developed because I wanted the characters to knead the dough on each other's bodies, but I didn't want them to be nude or showing a lot of skin, it didn't make sense.  but we also didn't want to ruin a costume every night. So the pullaway aprons were the solution.  And then the possibilities of the costumes create interesting possibilities for the movement and storyline.  So it's all pretty interwoven.

 

RW:Rachel, it's been great to talk with you! I'm curious about your next project.  What are you up to next?

 

RC: Next I'm going to Harvard University, as the Clifton Visiting Artist for 2005-2006, to lead a workshop with students exploring clay and movement.  Harvard has fantastic extracurricular ceramics and dance programs and it seemed like the perfect opportunity to explore the possibilities of combining ceramics and dance, which I've been wanting to do for a while. Clay has a malleability but also a fragility, like the human body, and throwing on the wheel

 

incorporates a lot of movement.  And there are a lot of creation myths/folklore about earth and the body. I'm excited to see what the students come up with.  I'm also excited about reinforcing to students the idea that it is possible to create one's own approach to art and career. The company is planning a full-length production based on the explorations in the workshop in October 2006, with a new score by Chris Becker played by live musicians (if the funding comes through or the musicians are generous with their time). 

 

I'm also trying out the hat of company director - now that Racoco productions is officially a not-for-profit,  I'm trying to build the infrastructure of the company and find the balance between the business and creative aspects. It's challenging, but also good fun!

 

For info about Rachel and Racoco productions please visit here www.racoco.org